This post was removed from subreddit r/UnbannableChristian by Reddit. In future, all posts at the site will also appear here. -kyrie
Edited by Metaphysical Catholic
We did a lot of work on the history of Diocletian and Constantine and we could see how much it informed how the Roman church and became dominant and totally effed-up what Jesus said with their Second Temple Judaistic version of "Christianity."
It's sickening that it's called Judeo-Christian as much as Jesus, Paul, Peter, John all rejected any ties to 2nd Temple Judaism. So K asked me to look at some material. This is part of it. Judge for yourself, I don't do in-depth anymore. She'll be doing a video I'm petty sure.
If you don't know what the Documentary Hypothesis is, use the link here. Previously all dating of Torah/Tanakh titles were taken from the writings themselves. This all sounds to me like what's going on today to erase any of the gospel.
Re: the “Old Testament” - this from a decent overview of the Documentary Hypothesis in Wikipedia:
The consensus around the classical documentary hypothesis has now faltered.[5] This was triggered in large part by the influential publications of John Van Seters, Hans Heinrich Schmid, and Rolf Rendtorff in the mid-1970s,[7] who argued that J was to be dated no earlier than the time of the Babylonian captivity (597–539 BCE)
J is the first author, the writer of Genesis and most of the Torah in the hypothesis. When K found out we don't have any Hebrew at all from before the exile, it supported her intuition I call theory.
The general trend in recent scholarship is to recognize the final form of the Torah as a literary and ideological unity, based on earlier sources, likely completed during the Persian period (539–333 BCE).[40][41] A minority of scholars would place its final compilation somewhat later, however, in the Hellenistic period (333–164 BCE).[42]
Kyrie's Intuition/Theory now being forwarded by recent schaolars: Deuteronomy was made from whole cloth during the Babaylonian exile. (605 B.C. to 538 B.C.) The commonly accepted dates derive from the common practice of Biblical scholars making the document they are assessing the source of the evidence they are basing assessment on:
Arguments by Scholars for the existence of most OT books Before the Babylonian ExileEvidence for Pre-Exilic Existence:
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The "Book of the Law" (2 Kings 22-23): Biblical narrative states that a "book of the law" was discovered in the Jerusalem Temple during renovations under King Josiah (c. 622 BCE). This scroll prompted major religious reforms focusing on centralizing worship in Jerusalem, which aligns with the central theme of Deuteronomy.
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Assyrian Treaty Parallels: The covenantal language and curses in Deuteronomy 28 strongly resemble 7th-century BCE Assyrian vassal treaties, such as those of Esarhaddon, suggesting it was written while Assyria dominated the region.
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The Deuteronomistic History: The books of Joshua, Judges, Samuel, and Kings use the language and theology of Deuteronomy. Since these books appear to have been compiled or written, at least in their first edition, around the time of Josiah's reign, the source material (Deuteronomy) must have existed.
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Geographical and Political Setting: The book describes a "Northern" tradition—likely coming from refugees fleeing to Judah after 722 BCE—that was integrated into Judean law during the time of Hezekiah or Josiah.
This writer knows of no evidence of "refugees" in southern Israel fleeing anywhere. The Assyrians attacked the city, certainly the locals got outof the ay, but once the Assyrians won and sen their own people to adminstrate from the city of Samaria, there would be no reason for the Israelites to not return to their homes.
The political climate would have nmade it very difficult to just run down to Judea and expect to we welcoed. The Judeans had been staying out of the conflict and were at odds with the Israel.
The early version of the Documentary Hypothesis held that Deuteronomy was supposed to come first, an ancient version of Law redacted by D, the "Deuteronomist". LATER, P represents a possible group of Priests who edited/redacted the other books. All based on accepting the validity of the "discovery" of the "Book of the Law" —a factoid tossed off in two verses of 2 Kings 22— which led to a total revision of the pratice of Judaism and Temple sacrafice and shifted authority to the exhilic Powers that Be, who did the rewriting.
In this way, all the writings up to Esther were validated by the scholarly assumption they depended on this ancient, redisovered scroll that had Josiah tearing his clothes in an agony of guilt that they'd been doing it all wrong.
The original theory is D was a single author of Deuteronomy and P represents the Priestly writer of the later books that cement this ideas as ancient and given by God to the Torah Elders. And the similarity in language is just from using D, not being D.
Here is a list of classic datings of OT books:
Primary sources Theology and the City and Jesus Alive
The Pentateuch (Books of the Law)
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Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy: Written by Moses (traditionally) between 1445–1405 B.C..
Historical Books
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Joshua: c. 1405–1385 B.C.
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Judges: c. 1100–1043 B.C.
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Ruth: c. 1030–1010 B.C.
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1 & 2 Samuel: c. 740–686 B.C.
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1 & 2 Kings: c. 561–538 B.C.
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1 & 2 Chronicles: c. 450–430 B.C.
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Ezra & Nehemiah: c. 457–400 B.C.
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Esther: c. 473–331 B.C.
Poetic & Wisdom Books
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Job: Uncertain; often considered the earliest, possibly 2000–1800 B.C., or written much later.
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Psalms: Compiled over a long period, mostly 1410–450 B.C..
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Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon: c. 970–930 B.C. (Solomonic era).
Major Prophets
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Isaiah: c. 700–681 B.C.
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Jeremiah: c. 627–570 B.C.
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Lamentations: c. 608–586 B.C.
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Ezekiel: c. 597–570 B.C.
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Daniel: c. 605–530 B.C.
Minor Prophets
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Hosea: c. 750–710 B.C.
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Joel: c. 596–586 B.C. (some place earlier, c. 835 B.C.)
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Amos: c. 762–750 B.C.
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Obadiah: c. 590 B.C. (some place earlier, c. 850 B.C.)
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Jonah: c. 775–798 B.C.
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Micah: c. 740–711 B.C.
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Nahum: c. 662–626 B.C.
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Habakkuk: c. 626–605 B.C.
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Zephaniah: c. 630–625 B.C.
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Haggai: c. 520 B.C.
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Zechariah: c. 520–470 B.C.
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Malachi: c. 433–400 B.C.
YET, AGAIN, THERE ARE NO EXTANT COPIES OR FRAGMENTS OF THESE BOOKS FROM BEFORE THE EXILE.
